Dull thoughts on a shiny, shiny world.
It so doesn't deserve it.
Published on January 31, 2007 By cactoblasta In Religion
Many years ago it became clear to me that God as described by the fundies was unworthy of worship.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe. It's just that, well, the god of the Christians is frankly an immoral, vicious bastard with the social graces of a praying mantis and a heart as black as coal.

I don't claim to know the infinite universe. I don't claim to be a good person. But I do try. So when I hear that the Creator is all for the murder of innocent children, or turns a respectable woman into salt for taking one last glance at their home before it's destroyed forever along with all her friends, I think - that god must be a prick. If I knew it socially I'd probably avoid speaking to it. Arseholes just aren't cool.

Of course the fundies would tell you that obedience is the key. But I've always believed that you should stand up for what is right. Why should I obey a ruthless, cruel dictator simply because he decided it would be fun to shape my ancestors out of clay/DNA/the sun god's right testicle/whatever your creation story of choice is?

Is that the kind of moral message the moral right wish to send? It's okay to obey the wishes of the evil if they have power over you. It's okay to sacrifice a small child if someone stronger than you asks. Don't make a fuss if someone takes all your stuff, kills your family and animals and infects you with diseases to win a bet. Don't speak up. Don't speak out. OBEY.

What kind of person would I be if I did that? What kind of person would obey the demands of a creature that is clearly fucked in the head?

Since I was a kid I've always been told to do what I believe to be right. And it's not right to do evil just because someone stronger than you tells you to. It's not right to do evil just because you'll suffer if you don't. It's not right to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Nazis and extremists and exclaim, when your conscience comes to judge, "It was an order!"

It's not right. And if God is really as malicious and cruel as it is described to be, then it is not worthy of worship. Power isn't everything, and every time we teach our children to obey, rather than question, evil, we condemn an entire generation to the horror of our own world.

An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity.
Comments (Page 1)
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on Jan 31, 2007
Well, I would argue with you, except I am not a fundamentalist.  But my God is supposed to be the same God as theirs.  However, my God gave man free will.  So that they could chose to obey him, or do evil.  And yes, sometimes even in his name.  The evils of the world are not the cause of God, they are the choice of men to do evil.
on Jan 31, 2007

yet we look at the story of Abraham/Issac as an object lesson in sort of obedience God requires from his 'true believers' and call it good.

The story of Abraham and Isaac, like so many other stories in the Bible, is one that is horribly mistaught in churches (the story of Lot's wife is another). The message of the story of Abraham was that God was trying to END the practice of child sacrifice, a practice that was common in that day and age. Abraham obeyed because he thought it was a reasonable request.

God could have had Abraham sacrifice Isaac to prove that he was willing, then resurrect Isaac. In fact, some theologians have speculated that is what Abraham expected. But He did not. He provided a sacrificial animal for Abraham instead.

The concept of sacrifice is one that is grossly misunderstood (and it is part of the reason for SOME misunderstanding between Christians, Jews and Muslims). I can't get into it in detail, but suffice it to say it's not being promoted properly.

As for Lot's wife, I believe the "looking back" was more than a wistful glance. I can't say for sure, but I have read several commentaries that state that it is more than that. Until such a time as I know the ancient texts well enough to read them for myself, I'll leave that one open.

The Christian God isn't a bad God, as you present it, cacto, he's just got a crappy PR team!

on Jan 31, 2007
An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity


Since I already answered you in part on my thread I'll be brief here. You are blaming God for the evil havoc that Satan has caused. God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god.

If God had created Adam and Eve with no free will and created only a robotic state of mind, then God would have been condemned for that. So basically he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Could you do better? It's tough to be God.

Let's put the blame where the blame belongs. It's not with God it's with our own black hearts working with the lies being fed us by the god of the earth....and it's not the same God I worship.

on Jan 31, 2007
If God had created Adam and Eve with no free will and created only a robotic state of mind, then God would have been condemned for that.


Just a facetious thought . . .

but . . .

Condemned by who? If we were all robotic automotons, who would there be to condemn him? Without free will, there is no free thought. Without free thought, there can be no condemnation.

Just thinking.
on Jan 31, 2007
Condemned by who?


Satan!

Didn't he do that with Job?

Oh God, no wonder Job loves you...you've built a hedge of protection around him.

I can see it now.....

Oh God, no wonder Adam and Eve bow to your every whim. You have made them like robots. You have put a hedge of robotic thought all around them. They don't love you freely, they love you as automated by you.

Besides, do you think God would have really wanted that kind of Love? It's not perfect....it's scripted.
on Jan 31, 2007
"Since I already answered you in part on my thread I'll be brief here. You are blaming God for the evil havoc that Satan has caused. God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god."


While I don't agree with Cacto, I have to take issue with that. You have said that 'everything' is part of God's, the real God's, plan, KFC. You even said the Holocaust was.

"Didn't he do that with Job? "


Yes, supposedly he, while hanging out with Satan, decided to let Satan kill off Jobs family to prove a point. Is that the kind of behavior we'd tolerate from humans? Why attribute it to a perfect God?


on Jan 31, 2007
Satan!


Satan would complain no matter what God did. That's Satan's job, remember?
on Jan 31, 2007
"An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity."


And an omnipotent God that imposed peace and justice would be a bully. You believe the Christian fundamentalist view of God to be bogus, but honestly when I read this I see you taking a lot of what they are saying as a given, and then judging God because of it. I see that a lot in Atheist dogma, too.

It makes it easy, because it offers a limited set of arguments to address. Expand that to the major religions, it gets more exhaustive. Expand it to all religions and you have to make a lifestyle out of opposing a being you don't believe in. In the end you are just arguing against people's OPINIONS of God, though, not God.

Take it one step further, and you find that everything in the argument falls apart. What if no one is right? What if it is all theory, no different than our limited understanding of everything else in the universe? What if all this religious nonsense has just paralleled our slow march toward scientific understanding?

In that case, we'd be the same as people who would stand today and brush off modern medicine because they once bled people to death. It is sad that most religion locked itself from advancing, but that is political, a means to power and authority, not the nature of personal faith or God. We've seen the same thing IN science, actually, when the ivory tower folks don't want their bogus theories questioned.

Instead of the conclusion I quote above, wouldn't it be just as easy to say that an omnipotent God that would create such a world must not be what they claim He is? Our sense of fairness, justice, even horror is based upon what we see with our limited senses, and then translated through our limited understanding.

A child that sees a lion eat a baby gazelle might make the same conclusion about God, and then happily go wolf down a hamburger without giving it much thought. We don't even understand the physical systems we live in, much less their moral implications in a universal sense. Our ignorance is huge enough to house God.
on Jan 31, 2007
The Christian God isn't a bad God, as you present it, cacto, he's just got a crappy PR team!


I like that. Is that yours? It's certainly true anyway.

God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god.


Two gods?!?!? And there I was thinking you were a monotheist! Each to their own I suppose. There's a sect in Turkey, coincidentally, which worships Lucifer as a god as well. The difference is they don't think he Fell.

In any event if God is truly omnipotent, benevolent and interested in our world then Satan would by definition be an irrelevancy. How can a creation not unlike us (except presumably with a better singing voice and a ridiculous quantity of wings) manage to undermine the plans of the infinitely powerful? It goes against all reason, particularly when we must assume that God has an even better knowledge of human nature than we do today. And there are techniques that can be used to sell sand to an Egyptian. We're damned good at persuasion; how could God be worse than Satan, let alone us?


A child that sees a lion eat a baby gazelle might make the same conclusion about God, and then happily go wolf down a hamburger without giving it much thought. We don't even understand the physical systems we live in, much less their moral implications in a universal sense. Our ignorance is huge enough to house God.


And that's basically my opinion. But many fundies I've met claim God did all the stuff mentioned in the bible and causes all the suffering in the world today all as part of his greater plan.

Basically if that's what God is - an omnipotent, relentlessly evil bastard - then I don't see any good in worshipping it. People used to worship cats too. It doesn't make it right.

Personally I'm inclined to think God is either not omnipotent at all, or not omnipotent by choice. Shit happens and it doesn't have much to do with it.
on Jan 31, 2007
Hmm, wasn't it God, not Satan, who ordered Abraham to sacrifice Issac to 'prove' his loyalty?


Looking at this from another pov...At least Issac would be in heaven then, hopefully. (If not, guess it would suck to be him.)

It's just that, well, the god of the Christians is frankly an immoral, vicious bastard with the social graces of a praying mantis and a heart as black as coal.


I disagree, i'm christian, and that's not my God. My God, is kind, caring/compassionate, just, understanding, amongst other things.

~L

on Jan 31, 2007
I disagree, i'm christian, and that's not my God. My God, is kind, caring/compassionate, just, understanding, amongst other things.


Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.
on Jan 31, 2007
Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.


Correct, I realize that humans wrote the bible, are fallible, and have agendas. So, i take everything with a grain of salt, and find my own truth. For example, i believe it was in the book of genesis, there was a point where Adam and Eve's children were told to go find wives/mates....where'd they come from since there isn't any mention of any other beings having existed at the time. (Sorry, this is coming from memory, bible study, years ago...)

~L
on Jan 31, 2007
Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.


Also, just because someone believes everything in the bible, doesn't make them a fundamentalists necessarily, foolish or easily led maybe, but not necessarily a fundie. If they start blowing things up, and preaching the my way or the high way....then sure. (IMO)

~L
on Jan 31, 2007
While I don't agree with Cacto, I have to take issue with that. You have said that 'everything' is part of God's, the real God's, plan, KFC. You even said the Holocaust was.


While God allows things to happen he's not the author of it. He can take the bad and turn it into good. An example would be Joseph. Sold into slavery by his own family he recognized this and said "while you meant it for evil God meant it for good to bring to pass as it is this day to save much people alive."

Yes, supposedly he, while hanging out with Satan, decided to let Satan kill off Jobs family to prove a point. Is that the kind of behavior we'd tolerate from humans? Why attribute it to a perfect God?


ya, hanging out. Ya that's it. When all was said and done, Job received a double portion of all he had EXCEPT his children. He received another 10 knowing full well that he would see all his previous children in heaven. He was a blessed man and he knew it.

Two gods?!?!? And there I was thinking you were a monotheist! Each to their own I suppose. There's a sect in Turkey, coincidentally, which worships Lucifer as a god as well. The difference is they don't think he Fell.


hahah I am a mono!! While there are many gods....there is only one GOD. A god or an idol is anything that takes our focus off the real thing. Satan fits that. Jesus called him the prince of the world. Satan aspires to be GOD but he will never be.

I think there are probably alot of outright Satanists out there. Never heard of this one in Turkey although it's quite interesting to me. Colosse, Ephesus, Laodicia and Hierapolis were all part of what is now Modern Turkey. Paul preached three years in Ephesus and everybody in that time period heard the gospel. So you are telling me now it is a Satanic stronghold? Paul knew this was going to happen as he mentions this in Acts.

How can a creation not unlike us (except presumably with a better singing voice and a ridiculous quantity of wings) manage to undermine the plans of the infinitely powerful? It goes against all reason, particularly when we must assume that God has an even better knowledge of human nature than we do today.


Exactly, he is a creation. We have nothing to fear from him. He has not managed to undermine anything God doesn't allow him to do. Again, the example of Job could be used here. Satan was limited to what he could do.

And that's basically my opinion. But many fundies I've met claim God did all the stuff mentioned in the bible and causes all the suffering in the world today all as part of his greater plan.


I believe the bible is his word and everything in it is true and believable. So I would agree with your fundie friends on the first point. But I would differ on the suffering. Suffering can come from different areas. Satan can make us suffer, like he did Job. Sometimes we suffer as a result of logical consequences.

As a matter of fact, I'll go out on a limb and dare suggest many times we cause alot of suffering all by ourselves. Why blame God for our reaping what we have sown? Drink too much? Have liver or other health problems? Blame God? Smoke too much? Lung cancer and other health issues? Blame God? Bad parenting? Irrisponsible kids? Blame God?




on Feb 01, 2007
This is how I see it Cacto, first off the bible has been re-written so many times that it's difficult to tell what's what anymore. While I do still read mine, the one I had since childhood, which is a totally different version from those I do see now....hence it's tattered...but it speaks to me and I learn from it. I dont' take everything literally, because if I did, I would probably be one of those fundamentalist people out there.

Also, why does God always gets blame for everything? HE might have created the world, and the first man intelligence and made animals who they are, maybe he's wondering where he went wrong?

I'm sick and tired of hearing people say Christians this and Christians that....99% of them don't speak for me, nor me for them....then again, they would run so far from me because I in no way behave or think the way they do!LOL! I cannot quote the bible without looking it up, and I'm not ashamed of that!

Why do people constantly think that God wants to hurt them, or wants us to be hurt? What's in it for him if he does? He would be one sick son of bitch that's for sure!

He did give man free will, despite what the bible dipicted about Eve's transgression. And who's to say it wasn't the man who did make Eve eat the apple?! LOL! Have you ever think about the fact that he is just waiting for us to really know ourselves and prove ourselves worthy?
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