"Obey Me," Says God and Fundies.

It so doesn't deserve it.

Published on January 31, 2007 By cactoblasta In Religion

Many years ago it became clear to me that God as described by the fundies was unworthy of worship.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe. It's just that, well, the god of the Christians is frankly an immoral, vicious bastard with the social graces of a praying mantis and a heart as black as coal.

I don't claim to know the infinite universe. I don't claim to be a good person. But I do try. So when I hear that the Creator is all for the murder of innocent children, or turns a respectable woman into salt for taking one last glance at their home before it's destroyed forever along with all her friends, I think - that god must be a prick. If I knew it socially I'd probably avoid speaking to it. Arseholes just aren't cool.

Of course the fundies would tell you that obedience is the key. But I've always believed that you should stand up for what is right. Why should I obey a ruthless, cruel dictator simply because he decided it would be fun to shape my ancestors out of clay/DNA/the sun god's right testicle/whatever your creation story of choice is?

Is that the kind of moral message the moral right wish to send? It's okay to obey the wishes of the evil if they have power over you. It's okay to sacrifice a small child if someone stronger than you asks. Don't make a fuss if someone takes all your stuff, kills your family and animals and infects you with diseases to win a bet. Don't speak up. Don't speak out. OBEY.

What kind of person would I be if I did that? What kind of person would obey the demands of a creature that is clearly fucked in the head?

Since I was a kid I've always been told to do what I believe to be right. And it's not right to do evil just because someone stronger than you tells you to. It's not right to do evil just because you'll suffer if you don't. It's not right to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Nazis and extremists and exclaim, when your conscience comes to judge, "It was an order!"

It's not right. And if God is really as malicious and cruel as it is described to be, then it is not worthy of worship. Power isn't everything, and every time we teach our children to obey, rather than question, evil, we condemn an entire generation to the horror of our own world.

An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity.

Comments (Page 2)

bakerstreet

on Feb 01, 2007

"ya, hanging out. Ya that's it."

...

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

...

You can't really debate the fact that God has allowed Satan to wander to and fro, it says it right there. You can't debate the fact that even in EDEN He let Satan muck things up. Would you let someone like Satan wander around messing with your kids? Odd way to run things.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 01, 2007

You can't really debate the fact that God has allowed Satan to wander to and fro, it says it right there. You can't debate the fact that even in EDEN He let Satan muck things up. Would you let someone like Satan wander around messing with your kids? Odd way to run things.

First of all having a conversation with Satan, and enjoying a cool one hanging out are two diff things. I was just joking saying ya...Satan and God...really tight!!

Yes, God did allow Satan to "muck" things up. That's the beauty of free will. We are given free will and have the choice to say yea or nay. So tho Satan is the temptor, we have to put on our big girl panties or big boy boxers and take responsibility for our own actions. And that Baker is something I think you can agree? Amen?

These Kids as you call them, were fully grown adults. Are you going to follow your daughter around and make sure Satan isn't messing up her day?

If so, I'd love to hear about it.

bakerstreet

on Feb 01, 2007

"Yes, God did allow Satan to "muck" things up. That's the beauty of free will."

I don't recall Angels enjoying the same level of 'free will' as humans. Different *cough* Beast entirely. There was no promise to the Angels in your histories, was there? God could do whatever He wanted with them anytime he liked, couldn't He?

"These Kids as you call them, were fully grown adults. Are you going to follow your daughter around and make sure Satan isn't messing up her day?"

Would I let someone who is patently evil wander around and harm my child? At any age? Nope. Would you? Would you let, say, a serial killer move freely around your family reunion and chalk it all up to free will?

I don't recall Job having any 'free will' choice in the matter of the destruction of his family, nor do I remember the family having any choice.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 01, 2007

No, but then I'm not God. I'm not in control. I am not omniscient nor am I omnipresent. I genuinely leave the God things up to him.

But I'll let him know you're concerned.

I don't recall Job having any 'free will' choice in the matter of the destruction of his family, nor do I remember the family having any choice.

Job was a very mature spiritual man. He quite recognized the sovereignty of God. He quite recognized that God gave him all he had. He even said "naked I came and naked I go, blessed be the name of the Lord."

Much like the little ol' lady who gave her last two mites in the temple. She also recognized and had great faith in God. If only I had that faith. I envy that. I'm working on it.

We don't own our children. We are their managers to take care of and to let go. They are not our possession. They were given us by God. Some recognize this...some don't. Doesn't matter. In the end we take nothing or nobody with us.

bakerstreet

on Feb 01, 2007

"No, but then I'm not God. I'm not in control."

So you're saying you you aren't in control, but you'd at least attempt to block someone that evil from being around your kids, but God, while in control, doesn't? Doesn't that seem odd considering how often Jesus referred to God as our "father"? It isn't like Satan is just a friend with bad habits, this is someone described by Christians as being completely willing to commit any and all evil.

Sounds like an odd choice to leave him wandering around among people you care about. I don't know that God owed Satan any free will. I'm not sure that Satan is the beneficiary of any grant that God gave to man or otherwise. Seems strange just to leave him off a leash to do what he wants.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 01, 2007

The Bible talks a lot about stewards and people entrusted with responsibilities, though, wouldn't you say? What are the consequences, usually, of people who were handed the master's goods and didn't bother to protect them?[/quote]

Job was a great steward of his family. If you notice, he gave God offerings on his children's behalf quite regularly. Yes, we are stewards of all God gives us, even our children so we'd agree here. All I'm saying is ultimately it's God who is their creator not us. Job could do nothing to save his children from the destruction that came upon them suddenly.

It didn't make him a poor steward. It brought him to the realization they were not his to begin with.

[quote]So you're saying you you aren't in control, but you'd at least attempt to block someone that evil from being around your kids, but God, while in control, doesn't? Doesn't that seem odd considering how often Jesus referred to God as our "father"?

we keep running smack into God's sovereignty Baker and which I think really you have a hard time with. Look at it this way....God called Job's kids home. He's taking very good care of them, better than Job could do. They are much better off than they were here...in the land of the dead. We are not in the land of the living here. We think we are but it's much nicer on the other side and when we get there we start a new life only it lasts for eternity.

[quote]I'm not sure that Satan is the beneficiary of any grant that God gave to man or otherwise. Seems strange just to leave him off a leash to do what he wants.

yes it does...to us it does. But it's all part of a plan that God has to call a people for his name. The sheep and the goats will be divided over this. It kinda reminds me of that story you may have heard.

A man with a gun and cameo bursts into an underground church in a communist country. He's angry and shouts that if any denounce the faith right now they can leave. A few do in a heartbeat. They scurry out. He again shakes the tree asking if anymore want to give their life up to their God or go free right now. A few more leave.

He shuts the door, and tells them He's also a Christian and wanted to be sure he was among his brethren because only then could he trust them with the news he had for them.

It's like that for us. There's nothing wrong with testing or even temptation for that matter. It's the only way we can prove ourselves. It's a test of our character. A test or trial doesn't make us who we are....it just exposes us.

Job was exposed and found worthy. He was refined and came out stronger than before. One thing is for sure, when you go thru a trial like Job, you come out changed and always in a diff direction than when you started. It's like a bend in the road that takes you to a different level.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 01, 2007

sorry for the above mess Baker, not sure why it came out all highlighted like that.

SilentPoet

on Feb 02, 2007

For example, i believe it was in the book of genesis, there was a point where Adam and Eve's children were told to go find wives/mates....where'd they come from since there isn't any mention of any other beings having existed at the time. (Sorry, this is coming from memory, bible study, years ago...)

Read the bold, I never said i was sure on it. I said, "I believe." I left a margin of error, because: A) I haven't read the bible in a while.

I never have really understood it.

Now, i admit, reading this, and then checking my own bible...it makes me think.

I was raised as being told that Adam and Eve were the first man, and woman. Reading that, and re-reading it now, it doesn't seem so. What do you think?

Chakgogka

on Feb 02, 2007

What I hope is a fair summary of the various possible positions based on the above:

1. There is a God, who has inerrantly revealed himself in Scripture and is every bit as nasty as you say, but the nastiness ultimately has a beauty and necessity in the 'Grand Plan' that your finite mind cannot be expected to grasp... [a view exemplified by KFCs postings]

2. There is a God who is indeed a vengeful, sadistic, cruel, 'artistic' monster, so suck it up you miserable little worm! [a view exemplified by LW's postings]

3. There is a God who is Perfect; he could therefore not possibly be the sadistic monster that scripture portrays, and these Bronze Age myths must merely represent a certain primitive stage in personkind's evolving attempts to comprehend the Numinous. [a view exemplified by Bakerstreet's postings]

4. There is no God.

I think that Cacto is essentially disputing options 1 and 2 because he is leaning towards option 3, but I would like to suggest that the most serene, rational and genuinely liberating of all these options is number 4...

cactoblasta

on Feb 02, 2007

I think that Cacto is essentially disputing options 1 and 2 because he is leaning towards option 3, but I would like to suggest that the most serene, rational and genuinely liberating of all these options is number 4...

Eh, I don't think there's any god worthy of worship out there who is omnipotent. And if the god isn't omnipotent and can have its will overturned at any point then there's no point worshipping it anyway.

I think I lean more towards

5. There may be a god, but if there is it's probably a) a sadistic bastard,

basically uninterested in humanity or c) little stronger than we are. Ergo there's no point worshipping it because that would be a)immoral, b)pointless or c) there'd be better investments of my time.

As for the benefits of atheism I am completely uninterested. A belief in things that can't be proven is what makes homo sapiens human. I will never throw away a ridiculous theory or belief simply because it can't be proven. Irrationality is, in this world of increasing rationality, a precious gift to be nurtured, not thrown away.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 02, 2007

5. There may be a god, but if there is it's probably a) a sadistic bastard,

basically uninterested in humanity or c) little stronger than we are. Ergo there's no point worshipping it because that would be a)immoral, b)pointless or c) there'd be better investments of my time.[/quote]

hmmmmm sounds like this theory comes straight from the pit of hell IMO. I see Satan pretty much saying this himself in scripture.

[quote]I was raised as being told that Adam and Eve were the first man, and woman. Reading that, and re-reading it now, it doesn't seem so. What do you think?

I think you're on to something. Scripture is very clear. There was no death before Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were the first humans. Not only do we see this in the OT but also in the New as well.

Gen 2:4 and following is clearly a topical focus where up until then the focus was chronological. The reason for this was after the order of things were stated, the author moved into the geneology of mankind.

cactoblasta

on Feb 02, 2007

hmmmmm sounds like this theory comes straight from the pit of hell IMO. I see Satan pretty much saying this himself in scripture.[/quote]

How convenient.

[quote]An interesting question, and one I just wrote about myself. Forgive the shameless plug, cacto, but I think you'll enjoy this one too

Go for your life. I can forgive just about anything so long as it's shameless.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 02, 2007

Many agree with you, of course, but many do not. So...who has it right?[/quote]

hahah, I do of course!! I guess I could ask you the same question!

[quote] can forgive just about anything so long as it's shameless

to err is human but to forgive is divine!

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