Dull thoughts on a shiny, shiny world.
Published on October 17, 2004 By cactoblasta In Politics
In recent days a number of writers on this site have released their manifestos about patriotism. Conservatives like Draginol have argued that to be a critical leftist is to be unpatriotic. Liberals like Same Old Rat have plaintively asked, "Why?" In response it has been said that to believe that the US is anything but a force for the greater good in this world is to be unpatriotic. Fair enough - blind patriotism requires unending support in the face of any evidence, whether manufactured or factual. But should all patriotism be blind, and is the brand of car bought really relevent to patriotism?

I'm an Australian citizen, so anyone who consciously ignores the opinions of uncivilised foreigners is welcome to abandon ship now. My current government, like the US government, is morally conservative and follows the prevalent neoliberal economic ideology. It supports this with slavering rhetoric towards the US, to an extent which suggests Australia, my homeland, is a mere client state of the US. Of course it is true, but is it patriotic to like it? Is it patriotic to be proud of imperial citizenry?

Is it not more patriotic to be nationalist? I want to see my country stand tall and, if necessary for this, stand with our equals and our own client states, not behind the shadow of our imperial patron. The activities of my government in Iraq and elsewhere have provided little advantage to my country save that which is eked out of Echelon and the dubious-quality intelligence provided by information-sharing, whose veracity is increasingly questionable following the debacle of the Iraq war intelligence Australia was fed.

I believe that nothing is worth the surrender of national integrity and soveriegnty, especially when it attracts the attention of belligerent rebels and terrorist groups. Of course, one could say that the terrorists simply hate our freedoms. One would be an idiot if one believed that terrorists had wide support for this reason, but one could say it. The US is more than willing to fight global terrorism; after the fall of the USSR another enemy had to be found and in Huntington's thesis a new foe emerged. It would be to Australia's advantage economically and strategically to avoid conflict with our Muslim neighbours. By allowing the US to do all the fighting we would be protecting our own interests. But we do not. Instead our beloved PM and his cabinet insist on lambasting our neighbours for their shortcomings in the counter-terror game and insist on making us a bigger target through the press and other means.

Personally I would consider the conservatives in my country to be unpatriotic. They have surrendered our freedom to a "great and powerful friend" and sacrificed our national security for illusory economic gains. It might be possible to be a patriot and be conservative; but in my country, where the conservatives are at every turn giving away our sovereignty to foreigners and even cutting bits of Australia off the map, the only way to be patriotic appears to be a critic.

Comments
on Oct 17, 2004
I'm a lefty and a Patriot - ask me how!

By: cactoblasta
Posted: Sunday, October 17, 2004 on Cactoblasta on....
Message Board: Politics
In recent days a number of writers on this site have released their manifestos about patriotism. Conservatives like Draginol have argued that to be a critical leftist is to be unpatriotic. Liberals like Same Old Rat have plaintively asked, "Why?" In response it has been said that to believe that the US is anything but a force for the greater good in this world is to be unpatriotic. Fair enough - blind patriotism requires unending support in the face of any evidence, whether manufactured or factual.


Draginol was reffering to the US left, not the Austrailian left Slight difference there old man.!
on Oct 17, 2004
Draginol was reffering to the US left, not the Austrailian left Slight difference there old man


True, but it still pisses me off a little. You can be critical of foreign policy and believe your country is doing the wrong thing without being unpatriotic.
on Oct 17, 2004
Reply #2 By: cactoblasta - 10/17/2004 7:01:08 PM
Draginol was reffering to the US left, not the Austrailian left Slight difference there old man


True, but it still pisses me off a little. You can be critical of foreign policy and believe your country is doing the wrong thing without being unpatriotic.


As an Austrailian you have no idea how Americans describe their patriots or what's expected from them, now do you?
on Oct 17, 2004
I can only speak from what I've seen here, and from what I've read of American books and seen of American TV. Americans seem to be incredibly big on visible patriotism - saluting flags, chanting short passages from sacred texts, singing the god-awful American anthem (it's nearly as bad as the Australian one!) and making economic decisions based on country of origin. I think I'm sufficiently mired in American culture that I can see some elements of the American patriot.

But that's largely beside the point. If American patriotism has no room for critical and cynical thought then so be it, but I would consider that less than optimal. As Socrates said, "There is no value in the unexamined life." If you have no subversives to question yourselves then you are doomed to tyranny.
on Oct 17, 2004
Fine. I'm an america, and taking Cactoblasta's idea, I wrote on the same topic. Look at that if you don't like what cacto has to say.
on Oct 17, 2004
Are not the flags of your country a part of patriotism? Is calling soldiers ill-trained, bloodthirsty killers patriotic? Is standing for Liberty but than attacking those who speak out against you patriotic?

What is a Patriot?
Webster (Link) defines it as one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.

What is Patriotism?
Webster (Link) defines it as love for or devotion to one's country.

So what does it all mean?

To me it means that being Patriotic means you love and support your countries authority and interests. You can question authority and the interests but how you go about the questioning them will expose either your patriotism or lack thereof. Is it right just to protest a war with a quip that 'No War Unless It Is Under a Democratic President!', or is it right to protest that war by remarking on the cost?

Though some will remark there is a lack of foreign support but they forget that Germany has troops in Afghanistan, Britain, Japan, Australia, Poland have troops in Iraq, along with the indigenous people helping out, so is it patriotic to forget the facts that go against your case in your attack on someone?

That is it for now from me.

- Grim X
on Oct 17, 2004
sandy2 - As per your request, I shot a look at your article. My critique: it started off rant-esque, steered into good territory with the references to how you love your country, and then shot back out straight into rantsville by attacking the Right in the same ways you felt they attacked you. I can tell you honestly that Cacto said it in much better fashion (which is why his gets a comment from me and yours doesn't).

Cacto - In apology for the aside, let me say that I found your article thoughtful and thought provoking. It's also an interesting peek into Australian politics. (I hope you know that all Americans aren't Imperialists out to subjugate your homeland... I'm sure you don't draw such sweeping generalizations.) It gets a little ranty in there, but it's a reasonable presentation of your views. Thanks.
on Oct 17, 2004
Are not the flags of your country a part of patriotism?


Nope. Being an Australian patriot does not involve flags. Most Australians, if answering honestly, will probably tell you they hate the design of the flag and would rather almost anything else. We've never fought and died for the flag. We've fought and died for the British empire, but mostly our troops have fought and died for each other and for the ideals that drive our nation.

Being Australian is about more than hollow flag-waving and shallow songs. It's about not knowing the second verse of the national anthem. It's about being humble in victory and a good sportsman in defeat. It's about cutting down tall poppies and never, ever suffering arrogance. A true Australian will never blame another person for their own inadequacies and will always lend a hand to help a mate. Of course most people, myself included, don't have it in them to be a patriot 24/7. But it is what we aspire to.

Cacto - In apology for the aside, let me say that I found your article thoughtful and thought provoking. It's also an interesting peek into Australian politics. (I hope you know that all Americans aren't Imperialists out to subjugate your homeland... I'm sure you don't draw such sweeping generalizations.) It gets a little ranty in there, but it's a reasonable presentation of your views. Thanks.


Yeah, I know most Americans aren't out to steal our sovereignty and take over. But from where I am it looks like my government is giving it away almost gratis to a surprised US. We are a client state due to our past and strategic need, but the actions of the government smacks of toadyism. By the way I appreciate your comments.
on Oct 17, 2004
Is it right just to protest a war with a quip that 'No War Unless It Is Under a Democratic President!', or is it right to protest that war by remarking on the cost?


I don't think I'd call either unpatriotic, depending on the situation. I'm guessing/hoping the first was said in some sort of ironic sense, in which case it has the potential for satire. Otherwise I'd consider it stupid and a sign of a decline in American education standards rather than necessarily unpatriotic. Protesting a war based on cost is pretty unethical, but for a country that appears so obsessed with material wealth I wouldn't out of hand consider it unpatriotic. Morally suspect yes, but unpatriotic? Perhaps not.

By the way, I'm not an American, so the Webster dictionary is not exactly the tome of all wisdom you make it out to be Grim. The Macquarie's the standard here, but really if you have to turn to dictionaries for definitions of common terms than you end up looking like a bit of an idiot. It's a stronger argument to use your own words and analysis.
on Oct 17, 2004
Nope. Being an Australian patriot does not involve flags


For Australia it is different, for America we fought and died for our flag so to dishonor it is to be unpatriotic.

I'm guessing/hoping the first was said in some sort of ironic sense, in which case it has the potential for satire.


No, it was on a sign a anti-war protester had on some march in Washington D.C. What is unethical about the costs? Are American lives worthless?

By the way, I'm not an American, so the Webster dictionary is not exactly the tome of all wisdom you make it out to be Grim. The Macquarie's the standard here, but really if you have to turn to dictionaries for definitions of common terms than you end up looking like a bit of an idiot. It's a stronger argument to use your own words and analysis.


I do that so we are all on the same page and you know where I am coming from, because people who only go on personal definitions for everything lose complete credibility when they possess the wrong definition, right?
on Oct 17, 2004
What is unethical about the costs? Are American lives worthless?


I assumed you meant the financial cost - my apologies. If they were worried about the loss of American life then I can't imagine how it could be considered unpatriotic to be concerned.

I do that so we are all on the same page and you know where I am coming from, because people who only go on personal definitions for everything lose complete credibility when they possess the wrong definition, right?


True, but I don't really like dictionary definitions. It's a pet hate of mine when I see them in my job. I'd like to think that everyone is clever enough to understand the terms we're discussing, but I guess these days that's not so certain. But yes, I think it is useful for everyone to use the same definition. I would have thought most people would have the same idea of what patriotism technically means (love of country). Wouldn't they? It's only the complex cultural meaning that I really want to argue.
on Oct 17, 2004
sandy2 - As per your request, I shot a look at your article. My critique: it started off rant-esque, steered into good territory with the references to how you love your country, and then shot back out straight into rantsville by attacking the Right in the same ways you felt they attacked you. I can tell you honestly that Cacto said it in much better fashion (which is why his gets a comment from me and yours doesn't).


I wasn't attacking the right, I was saying using the same reasoning that is what I would say. And of course it was Rantish, I was pissed. I make no apologies for that.
on Oct 17, 2004
It's only the complex cultural meaning that I really want to argue.


That definition there could different for each country. What is patriotic for a Japanese person is not patriotic for an Iranian, et cetera.

My cultural background (which includes how I was raised and taught) says to be patriot means to respect the flag that those before even in my own family have fought for and died for; to love your country taking the good with the bad; to support each individual's rights to make their own choices in their own lives; not to judge people lest you be judged; when speaking out about the government to speak of the governments policies not call the government Nazi, Communist, or Totalitarian or to accuse them of performing misdeeds when there is absolutely zero empirical evidence to support that claim; when speaking out against the Governmnet only use what is tangiable and truthful backed by fact.

To me that is patriotism.
on Oct 17, 2004
What is a Patriot?
Webster defines it as one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.

What is Patriotism?
Webster defines it as love for or devotion to one's country.


I was raised to believe that America was the land of freedom. I grew up loving America, and pretty much started calling myself a Patriot. I didn't necessarily agree with some of our past Presidents (Reagan, Bush Sr.) though. My father tried to convince me that I was not a Patriot because of this.

Now I know why he said that, and now I know why I hear people call me un-Patriotic for disliking Bush Jr. However, I don't necessarily agree with this charge. I think part of being a Patriot in America involves supporting what America stands for. What America stands for, to me, is the freedom of CHOICE. You can CHOOSE to like or dislike your President, I believe, and still be an American Patriot. I think you could even downright protest the government and still be a Patriot. Why? Because it's in the constitution. Anything you are given a right to do in the constitution (including the right to vote), to me, falls within the definition of supporting America's "authority and interests." I know a lot of people would probably disagree with my interpretation of this, but that I can't really help. However, my thought on this whole thing is that these differences - of opinion, background, or whatever - are part of what makes this country what it is.

Despite everything else, this nation is still a Democracy. Not a Dictatorship. Not a Monarchy. Not even a Theocracy. And until the day that Americans are not allowed to vote for what they'd like to change about this nation (including who's sitting in the Oval Office), I'll go on calling myself a Patriot.
on Oct 20, 2004
Thanks for your comments guys. I think this one is pretty much wrapped up now.